{"comments":{"1137234":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137234","comment_id":"1137234","member_id":"68733","comment":"You did? I am having a comprehension problem then, my apologies !!!! LOL","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 8:50pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137233":{"pb_id":"3300","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137233","comment_id":"1137233","member_id":"3300","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\nJoe? Come on now, you want to argue for arguments sake? Really?
\n
\n
\na course that is less than 20 years old barely even has any history, and if you were not just trying to be contrary here you would agree, all right lets say 15?
\n
\nPlsu run by greats? or at least more than a few
\n
\n
\nMcGorty is not an all time great and Thompson? not even close to that, really. Come on, you want to drill me on this, feel free.
\n
\nNo one is saying Hunter is not great, just that referencing his performaces up against a lightly run , let's say vs. a Van Cortlandt, Holmdel, SM, Ill. state mmeet course, Balboa, it's hard to say that a six year old venue or even 10-12 years old is an all time reference point.
\n
\nI thought they ran GAXC at same place for over 15 years, my bad. Not even that?
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nArgue for arguments sake? I just finished telling you that I agreed with what you have said on this thread. Geez.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 8:31pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Joe Lanzalotto","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3300","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Joe-Lanzalotto.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"7321"},"1137226":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137226","comment_id":"1137226","member_id":"68733","comment":"Joe? Come on now, you want to argue for arguments sake? Really?
\n
\n
\na course that is less than 20 years old barely even has any history, and if you were not just trying to be contrary here you would agree, all right lets say 15?
\n
\nPlsu run by greats? or at least more than a few
\n
\n
\nMcGorty is not an all time great and Thompson? not even close to that, really. Come on, you want to drill me on this, feel free.
\n
\nNo one is saying Hunter is not great, just that referencing his performaces up against a lightly run , let's say vs. a Van Cortlandt, Holmdel, SM, Ill. state mmeet course, Balboa, it's hard to say that a six year old venue or even 10-12 years old is an all time reference point.
\n
\nI thought they ran GAXC at same place for over 15 years, my bad. Not even that?","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 8:28pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137211":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137211","comment_id":"1137211","member_id":"43715","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\nDidn;t Fischer win FL as a junior?
\n
\nWasn't he unbeaten all of last year until Juniors?
\n
\nOff 40 miles a week max with soccer obligations
\n
\n
\nYou don;t think he is the best guy? I will tell you this. most college coaches do, trust me
\n
\nand for Hunter to be even near being an all timer, which is what the OTHER guy said, NOT ME, he would need to be well below a 15:25 guy or even 20 at Holmdel
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nYes, he was unbeaten in Michigan - plus FLMW and FLN. Though, as I said, he was challenged pretty heavily down the homestretch at FLN by a guy that returned (Dressel) who isn't even clearly the #1 GSL guy returning from last year (Anderson was just as good as he was). In track, again he was undefeated (as long as you don't count prelims) against high schoolers, with his only two non-MI competitions being the Dream Mile (where he beat another return, Maton, by about a second) and Jr Nats where he was the top prep finisher in the finals after being the fourth fastest prep in the prelims (behind another returner, Tamagno).
\n
\nHe is a deserving #1 because he tends to win races, but he isn't a FAR AND AWAY #1 because his times aren't much (if at all) better than his top competitors and he doesn't get the chance to really race anyone until the post season (Michigan travel rules prevent MI teams from going to many out of state meets, and not many out of state teams race in Michigan).
\n
\nas for Hunter being an All-Timer: I agree, if he couldn't break 15:00 at Holmdel, I wouldn't call him an All-Timer.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 8:00pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1137204":{"pb_id":"45158","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137204","comment_id":"1137204","member_id":"45158","comment":"Fischer should be favored but as a NW guy who observes the national scene, I HIGHLY doubt Dressel, Anderson, and Maton are scared of him.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:36pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"DontStopPre","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_wally_id":"1182171"},"1137202":{"pb_id":"3300","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137202","comment_id":"1137202","member_id":"3300","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\nTop Ten All Time?
\n
\nSurely you jest , he had no one near him at this speedway? That is rarely run by top level guys, and is in infancy in relative timed tested-ness(new WORD) You are so far off on what an All Timer looks like it is frightening. The guy nearest to him was what? 30 seconds back?
\n
\nYou think he could handle Fischer? I do not and he is not even a guranteed all timer yet.
\n
\n
\n
\n
\nI think you need to re define what an all timer might look like.
\n
\n
\nThere are pretty good reference points on here somewhere and a GAXC time winning over no notables no matter how good, is not one of them,
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nIt may be relatively new in your eyes but some pretty good guys have run there including, as someone mentioned above, McGorty and Jacob Thompson.
\n
\nBTW, the place has been around since 2008 I believe so while it doesn't have the history of some other courses, its hardly brand new.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:30pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Joe Lanzalotto","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3300","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Joe-Lanzalotto.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"7321"},"1137201":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137201","comment_id":"1137201","member_id":"68733","comment":"Didn;t Fischer win FL as a junior?
\n
\nWasn't he unbeaten all of last year until Juniors?
\n
\nOff 40 miles a week max with soccer obligations
\n
\n
\nYou don;t think he is the best guy? I will tell you this. most college coaches do, trust me
\n
\nand for Hunter to be even near being an all timer, which is what the OTHER guy said, NOT ME, he would need to be well below a 15:25 guy or even 20 at Holmdel","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:36pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137199":{"pb_id":"45158","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137199","comment_id":"1137199","member_id":"45158","comment":"Jumping into this conversation mid-thread, I don't think it was ever crystal clear what "all timer" meant ... whether that meant one of the best this season or all time. On top of that is it all time state, region, or nation?
\n
\nPersonally I assumed it meant all time, US. However how people define that is 1. subjective and 2. needs to be determined how deep a list goes (top 10 all time list or top 50 or top 100, etc).","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:28pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"DontStopPre","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=45158","pb_wally_id":"1182171"},"1137198":{"pb_id":"69579","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137198","comment_id":"1137198","member_id":"69579","comment":"I mean top 10 in the country, not all time, my bad.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:26pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Xc911","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=69579","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Xc911.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1511823"},"1137197":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137197","comment_id":"1137197","member_id":"43715","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\n1. Hunter is not nearly an All Timer, not on the track yet or XC
\n
\n2. Fischer is by far THE best guy and in Cross. I am not even sure yet he is an All TImer
\n
\nwhen I think of an All Timer in Cross, I think, never gets beaten except by OTHER All Timers OF All Timers. or just never gets beat , wins eeverything and then some.
\n
\nHunter has run 8:53.xx so many have run faster, but NOT as sophs, I get that and 4:10.94 is not even that special for a soph anymore
\n
\n
\nLet's see what he does, he has a waaaaays to go for me to put him with certain guys.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nFisher had a challenge late last year from a guy that is back, and wasn't even the clear best returner from his league. How does that make him BY FAR the best guy in XC? It's hard to gauge Fisher, because he doesn't run against anyone from outside his state (and he's just getting into things), but how can you say he is BY FAR the best, and guys running All-Time marks in notable meets can't possibly be near him?
\n
\nAlso, I never said Hunter was ALL TIME, just that he is a great runner, running times extremely similar to a recent FLN Runner-up, is probably a Top 5 guy this year and would probably be running 15:20-15:25 if he was running at Holmdel.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:19pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1137159":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137159","comment_id":"1137159","member_id":"68733","comment":"Top Ten of all time? In what?
\n
\nhe has not even won one FL or NXN yet, you're kidding , right?","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:08pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137158":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137158","comment_id":"1137158","member_id":"68733","comment":"Top Ten All Time?
\n
\nSurely you jest , he had no one near him at this speedway? That is rarely run by top level guys, and is in infancy in relative timed tested-ness(new WORD) You are so far off on what an All Timer looks like it is frightening. The guy nearest to him was what? 30 seconds back?
\n
\nYou think he could handle Fischer? I do not and he is not even a guranteed all timer yet.
\n
\n
\n
\n
\nI think you need to re define what an all timer might look like.
\n
\n
\nThere are pretty good reference points on here somewhere and a GAXC time winning over no notables no matter how good, is not one of them,","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 7:04pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137094":{"pb_id":"69579","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137094","comment_id":"1137094","member_id":"69579","comment":""1. Hunter is not nearly an All Timer, not on the track yet or XC"
\n------------
\nLoL...what results you looking at ? This past Sat in NC made me a believer. The kid is a stud, top 10 in my book.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 6:35pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Xc911","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=69579","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Xc911.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1511823"},"1137086":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137086","comment_id":"1137086","member_id":"68733","comment":"1. Hunter is not nearly an All Timer, not on the track yet or XC
\n
\n2. Fischer is by far THE best guy and in Cross. I am not even sure yet he is an All TImer
\n
\nwhen I think of an All Timer in Cross, I think, never gets beaten except by OTHER All Timers OF All Timers. or just never gets beat , wins eeverything and then some.
\n
\nHunter has run 8:53.xx so many have run faster, but NOT as sophs, I get that and 4:10.94 is not even that special for a soph anymore
\n
\n
\nLet's see what he does, he has a waaaaays to go for me to put him with certain guys.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 5:33pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1137084":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137084","comment_id":"1137084","member_id":"43715","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\nRob,
\n
\nLove your work, your responses are too long for someone with ADD like me to read all of it.
\n
\n
\nTo another poster, Adding Salisbury in does probably get them to 15:30's avg. but so what. This course runs blazong fast as evidenced by Hunter's 14:46, he is very very good, but hardly an All Timer.
\n
\nI also agree they did not run as poorly as I orignally thought. But, their issue is, if their line up stays as is, they have a gap of 48 secnds from 4 to 5 in this one, in a deeper field? They just keep on adding up like a cash register.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nYes, they need Salisbury if they are to compete with the likes of CBA and other nationally elite programs. Hunter is a great runner, though -- almost every one of his races are among the best marks in the nation this year (consistently running times that would be ~15:20-15:25 at Holmdel) and ran 8:16.31 for 3k last year AS A SOPHOMORE. He was 2.5 seconds off McGorty's CR at WakeMed, and ran 5 seconds faster than McGorty at Oatlands. I'd say he's pretty damn good.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 5:26pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1137083":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137083","comment_id":"1137083","member_id":"43715","comment":"

<\/a>Coach Parise, on , said:<\/p>

\nI am just curious if you give teams from smaller states a look at your rankings. McQueen High School was missing their 5th runner at the Stanford meet. If he was there and just ran a decent race they would of won Stanford by 100 instead of losing by 20.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nYes, I give all states a look whenever I can, and since Nevada teams have run against teams from other states, Nevada is included. Nevada meets in the system: Palo Verde, Twilight Classic, Las Vegas, Red Rock, North Tahoe, and Falcon.
\n
\nMcQueen was US#41 in the last update (the first team to not make the rankings)","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 5:20pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1137029":{"pb_id":"3300","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1137029","comment_id":"1137029","member_id":"3300","comment":"

<\/a>King999, on , said:<\/p>

\nRob,
\n
\nLove your work, your responses are too long for someone with ADD like me to read all of it.
\n
\n
\nTo another poster, Adding Salisbury in does probably get them to 15:30's avg. but so what. This course runs blazong fast as evidenced by Hunter's 14:46, he is very very good, but hardly an All Timer.
\n
\nI also agree they did not run as poorly as I orignally thought. But, their issue is, if their line up stays as is, they have a gap of 48 secnds from 4 to 5 in this one, in a deeper field? They just keep on adding up like a cash register.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nI agree with almost everything you've said on this thread but cannot agree with your dismissal of Hunter as "not an all-timer". I think he's on his way to that and after watching him up close at Great American he's my #1 individual. He did run 8:53.81 and 4:10.94 (both yards) on back to back days as a soph last year.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 4:19pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Joe Lanzalotto","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=3300","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Joe-Lanzalotto.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"7321"},"1136982":{"pb_id":"68733","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136982","comment_id":"1136982","member_id":"68733","comment":"Rob,
\n
\nLove your work, your responses are too long for someone with ADD like me to read all of it.
\n
\n
\nTo another poster, Adding Salisbury in does probably get them to 15:30's avg. but so what. This course runs blazong fast as evidenced by Hunter's 14:46, he is very very good, but hardly an All Timer.
\n
\nI also agree they did not run as poorly as I orignally thought. But, their issue is, if their line up stays as is, they have a gap of 48 secnds from 4 to 5 in this one, in a deeper field? They just keep on adding up like a cash register.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 12:35pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"King999","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=68733","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/King999.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1493915"},"1136913":{"pb_id":"54740","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136913","comment_id":"1136913","member_id":"54740","comment":"I am just curious if you give teams from smaller states a look at your rankings. McQueen High School was missing their 5th runner at the Stanford meet. If he was there and just ran a decent race they would of won Stanford by 100 instead of losing by 20.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 5:18am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Coach Parise","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=54740","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=54740","pb_wally_id":"1390454"},"1136845":{"pb_id":"69579","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136845","comment_id":"1136845","member_id":"69579","comment":"Looking at the past results, LSA did well. No kidding courses vary, thank you captain obvious. Adding a healthy Salisbury would of help dropped their avg top 5 - 15:30's?? CBA has the best team time- 1520's. Brentwood very close as well. I still give the edge to CBA.","date_added":"Oct 7th 2014, 12:31am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Xc911","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=69579","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Xc911.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1511823"},"1136794":{"pb_id":"43639","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136794","comment_id":"1136794","member_id":"43639","comment":"

<\/a>Xc911, on , said:<\/p>

\nThat statement is way off. With a healthy Salisbury LSA potentially would have 5 guys under 1547. Their top 4 ran strong. From what I heard Salisbury has been working out in the pool, getting in some quality work. He will be back when it really counts.
<\/div><\/div>
\n
\nBill meylan's speed ratings, though flawed, are probably the most consistent way of evaluating how a race runs.
\n
\nUsing his data, it appears LaSalle had their worst race of the season. Even plugging in a healthy Salisbury as their #1 guy, they still run poorly.
\n
\nAnd who cares if 5 guys run under 15:47, it's xc and courses vary greatly.","date_added":"Oct 6th 2014, 10:10pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"GeorgieTheK","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43639","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/GeorgieTheK.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1073375"},"1136773":{"pb_id":"69579","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136773","comment_id":"1136773","member_id":"69579","comment":""LaSalle ran poorly yesterday with or withoutSalisbury. And the reality now is he would not be their number one and may never return to form"
\n-------------
\n
\nThat statement is way off. With a healthy Salisbury LSA potentially would have 5 guys under 1547. Their top 4 ran strong. From what I heard Salisbury has been working out in the pool, getting in some quality work. He will be back when it really counts.","date_added":"Oct 6th 2014, 8:36pm","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Xc911","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=69579","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Xc911.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1511823"},"1136522":{"pb_id":"45400","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136522","comment_id":"1136522","member_id":"45400","comment":"No problem, Rob. Sorry to have wasted so much of your valuable time.","date_added":"Oct 6th 2014, 2:22am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Greg Beal","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45400","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Greg-Beal.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1108424"},"1136495":{"pb_id":"43715","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136495","comment_id":"1136495","member_id":"43715","comment":"Dear Greg Beal,
\n
\nIf you were understanding my responses, you wouldn't try to make it sound like I don't agree that there is variability to performance as you do in this post. Either that, or you are intentionally misrepresenting my position in your posts.
\n
\nThe fact that teams with exceptional PRs don't set HS records of quite the same level has NOTHING to do with how the faster team will be seeded ahead of the slower but consistent team, nor does it have anything to do with faster teams being better than slower but more consistent teams. I never said as such - in fact, I specifically said the opposite (that runners DON'T usually run exactly what they've done in the past). To make your point relevant, what happens more often: that slower but more consistent individuals place high in relays, or faster but less consistent individuals place high in relays (or even races, as it's the same situation)? I haven't done the research, but I would imagine that faster beats slower at least half the time.
\n
\nWhen it comes to rewarding teams for winning titles, I agree that a teams' consistency should be rewarded. When it comes to seeding invitationals, I'd go with the teams with more potential. If you can't achieve both the same level of accuracy and fairness when looking at averages compared to weighted averages, I think it's pretty important to lean towards weighted averages, even if it points more towards "good" performances than "poor" performances since we rarely know the reasons for those sub-maximal performances.
\n
\nCongratulations for reading about rankings for years. I imagine you were quite upset this morning when the NCAA AP Football poll ranked Michigan State ahead of Oregon despite Oregon's 46-27 beat down of them less than a month ago, so my condolences for any pain and suffering that might give you, even if you can manage to admit that you believe rankings don't matter.
\n
\nCongratulations on saying that my rankings AREN'T based on actual performances, but once again YOU ARE WRONG. ALL of my rankings ARE based on ACTUAL performances, even if you don't think looking at multiple races counts as "actual performances".
\n
\nI am sorry you don't see the fallacy in talking about how performances can vary while saying that rankings must always match team standings in specific meets.
\n
\nI am sorry if you don't see the value in looking at multiple meets rather than single meets when rankings teams for an entire season.
\n
\nI am sorry you believe a team resting a runner (whether due to minor injury or illness) should immediately be penalized in rankings simply because you don't know the situation.
\n
\nI don't know where you think you read that I ignore missing runners for mulltiple weeks at a time, but once again you are mistaken as to how my rankings work, even though I've said so specifically.
\n
\nIf you want to continue discussing my rankings and either pretending that you understand how the rankings work (because you've on multiple occasions, even after it's been explained, bring up hypothetical situations or make statements that DON'T align with how the rankings work) or misrepresenting what's being told to you, I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop obliging you. We can either discuss why a team is ranked where they are, or you can actually discuss my responses without misrepresenting my responses, but you've already taken up 2 pages worth of posts debating in circles while trying to make me out to be someone who ignores results and ranks teams wherever I want with no reasonable rationale behind it. Failing that, I feel my time will be better spent actually doing my job rather than entertaining your boredom or thirst for debates that are going nowhere.
\n
\n
\n
\nSincerely,
\n
\nRob Monroe","date_added":"Oct 6th 2014, 1:45am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/forum\/uploads\/av-43715.jpg","pb_title":"watchout","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/www.runnerspace.com\/profile.php?member_id=43715","pb_wally_id":"1073498"},"1136491":{"pb_id":"45400","pb_type":"members","likes":"0","parent_id":"0","pid":"1136491","comment_id":"1136491","member_id":"45400","comment":"I too appreciate the amazing amount of work Watchout has put into high school cross country over the past many years. It's been remarkable and should be praised far and wide (well, at least in the world of high school cross country).
\n
\nStill, despite his believing that I'm misunderstanding his lengthy responses, I'm not misunderstanding anything. I simply don't agree with the theory or with the methodology.
\n
\n
\nLet's talk about those 3200 times and seedings. Yes, if someone were seeding a 5x3200 race at a track invitational, the team with the five fastest 3200 times would be seeded first. But seedings are simply projections and do not tell the whole story of how those runners have performed seasonally. As in 4x1600\/mile races, we all know that various boys and girls teams have arrived at Arcadia, NBN and else where with PRs near or even ahead of the national records. In recent years (and for the boys, for decades), how many of those exceptional teams have run those PRs collectively in a race? Close to zero, I believe. I know of one, the Saugus girls in 2008, when all four ran PRs to finish in 20:10 for a 4 x mile at Arcadia.
\n
\nWe should expect nothing different from a team with excellent 3200 PRs, especially if they've been inconsistent throughout the season. Running PRs during the length of a season is one thing; running or even approaching those PRs in the same race is a tad more challenging and seldom happens.
\n
\nA team's consistent cross country performances shouldn't be overshadowed by a team built on a series of occasionally good but more often inconsistent and not-as-good performances. One may have high hopes for the inconsistent teams but the consistent teams will bring home far more invitational and state trophies in the long run.
\n
\nMany of us on these boards have been reading in-season rankings for various sports for years and, some of us, for decades. In no instance that I can remember are in-season rankings based on projections or seedings. All are based on actual performances. Given our experience of rankings, wouldn't it be reasonable for us to expect a similar approach to cross country rankings?
\n
\nI understand your argument about competition, off weeks, running a B team, resting runners, injuries, illnesses, course conditions, ACT and SAT tests, etc. - and I think it's perfectly reasonable for the person doing the rankings to take those factors into consideration on occasions when to do otherwise would greatly skew the rankings. But since the rankings only appear every once in a while, more often than not, the affected teams will run at least one race with a full squad during the intervening period.
\n
\nFinally, though, that shouldn't matter. If a team has injured runners, that team shouldn't be ranked as if those athletes are still running races. That's just not reasonable. If a team repeatedly runs races with less than its projected varsity seven, it should be ranked on the basis of the team that has run and is running, not the team that might run at some race in some week or some month down the seasonal road.","date_added":"Oct 6th 2014, 1:23am","nest":0,"liked":false,"member":[],"can_delete":false,"item_id":287145,"item_type":"news","pb_image":"i\/no_avatar.png","pb_title":"Greg Beal","pb_url":"profile.php?member_id=45400","pb_url_dns":"https:\/\/Greg-Beal.runnerspace.com\/","pb_wally_id":"1108424"}},"last_id":"1136491","url":"comments.php?item_type=news&item_id=287145&item_url=gprofile.php?mgroup_id=46052"}